[Milva McDonald]: All right, welcome, everyone. So first thing I want to do is some business, the minutes. Did anyone have a chance to look at the minutes?
[David Zabner]: I did. They seemed reasonable to me. I move that we accept the minutes.
[Milva McDonald]: OK, all in favor? Yes. OK, great. Okay, so do we want to review what we talked about last time?
[David Zabner]: That sounds super reasonable to me. Do you want me to share my screen? I can show what it is that we started writing particularly.
[Milva McDonald]: Sure, let me give you the ability to do that. Oh, okay. You should be able to do it now. Great.
[David Zabner]: So the long story short is that we, um, created a folder for all of the documents that we're going to be working on here in Google docs and started just kind of taking notes first on the list of groups that we might empower generally. Right. So somewhat exhaustive list. I don't imagine that like school committee chair, school committee will be something we're working on because that's not part of articles two and three, but they are still, we want to think about them. If there's any powers that we might want to leave to them, I guess, basically.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, definitely the whole committee will talk about that, but the school committee subcommittee will also have a lot to say too, I'm sure.
[David Zabner]: Absolutely. So I figured we could just start by listing those, and then we started making a list of all of the powers we could kind of imagine giving to any of these groups. Some of them you'll see are crossed out because they're things that either we've decided a different subcommittee is going to talk about, for example, the budget, or because we feel that they're not part of articles two or three, for example, the charter amendment process and ordinances, et cetera. I'll go ahead and share the link to this document in the chat so that you can see it, John. Although it's, you know, publicly available as well.
[Milva McDonald]: It's in our folder, right?
[David Zabner]: Yeah, exactly. But a little easier to find with that link.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay, so, and we, last week we had some ideas about the committee, committee and multi member body appointments, right?
[David Zabner]: So one thing I sent an email afterwards with a thing I was hoping to add to that.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay, can you can you refresh on that?
[David Zabner]: Absolutely. Let me see what I wrote so I can refresh my own memory. Um, Right, so one of the things we got talking about within appointments, giving the mayor appointment power, having the appointments take effect after 21 days, unless the city council acts to veto the appointment of a person. The mayor can also remove people as they want from multi-member boards and commissions, again, subject to a similar city council override. Um, and the city council can remove people by unanimous vote. The piece that I was thinking we might want to add is. At the moment, with the process for these committees. The mayor puts out a call saying, hey, we have these openings. Please send me applications basically, but the mayor is not required to make public who applied. The mayor is not required to, like, respond to applications and then the quarter time. Or at all, um, and I feel like for transparency reasons, we probably want. Both of those things to be requirements, so the specific thing that I emailed about. I said, I felt that the, um, the mayor should be required to respond to applicants directly who applied. Assuming that the subcommittees have an opening, right? Like, I don't think we need to. open up a way in which somebody can legally harass the mayor and just be like, I'm applying to this, I'm applying to this, and require responses all the time. But assuming that there's an opening, the mayor should have to respond. And then there should be some public record of everybody who applied and whether or not they were appointed to a committee. Again, just for transparency reasons.
[Milva McDonald]: Do you have thoughts on that, John?
[Moreshi]: I mean, candidly, I think those sound like polite, nice things to do. So I think you should do them. I don't, I don't think that strikes me as a small mechanical thing that wouldn't belong in a charter in my estimation. Frankly, I mean, as someone who's had applications come to me in other contexts, you do your best to reply in a timely way and You know, I don't think establishing that as a mandate in the charter is something I would go for.
[Milva McDonald]: I agree. I don't I don't wouldn't want to put it in the charter either. And as far as the public record, I mean, I don't know about like, I mean, so the requiring a response is one thing. And then there's the, requirement to make public the applicants. They are available. Anybody can make a public records request and see. So I'm pretty sure of that. I can double check that. John, do you know if that's correct?
[Moreshi]: I believe so.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. So in a way that already exists, but you do have to ask for it.
[David Zabner]: I think that's far from unreasonable to have people have to ask. I think that's fine.
[Milva McDonald]: OK. So the one thing we, I mean, if you want to vote, we can officially vote, but it looks like we're, and then the other thing we figure it already exists in some form. I also just wanted to say that we're going to discuss, we're going to bring this to the full committee in December, and we'll have a bigger discussion, and the Collins Center will be there. But I briefly talked to the Collins Center, and, you know, they felt like 21 days was too short. Because, I mean, it is true, the city council, a lot of city councils, including Medford's now, only meet every other week. And 45 days is more standard. I thought I was thinking maybe we could put 30 as a compromise. I don't know what you guys think.
[David Zabner]: I'm very comfortable with 30. Yeah, 45 days feels really long to me.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, it does to me too. But what do you think, John?
[Moreshi]: Yeah, I agree. You know, particularly, I guess I'm less concerned about that timeframe for boards and commissions. But if we are talking about appointments for actual jobs, the full-time salaried positions that the town needs, it seems like a long time. I suppose if that's, you know, I'm sorry to cut you off.
[Milva McDonald]: No, no, it's okay. Right now we're only talking about the committees and commissions.
[Moreshi]: No, no, I know. I'm just, I'm wondering if that's a distinction that exists in other communities. You mean between the... Is it 45 days for appointed? I guess that's not what we're talking about.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, yeah. I mean, we're going to get to department heads, right? And I feel like it could be different. I don't see why they would have to be the same.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. I'm just curious what the call center was looking at. I'm mostly thinking out loud.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, we were specifically talking about the multi-member boards and that sort of standard time for confirmation is 45 days. So it's different from hires, city hires.
[Moreshi]: OK. You know, my, my baseline, all of the things being equal is to do what other communities have done, because it's proven, um, you know, and it's, it's sometimes concerning that, uh, you know, maybe we don't know everything and we're missing something. So I think there's, um, you know, I, now that we're talking about it, my memory is Weymouth has 45 days. And the significance of that to me is that it's one of the newest city charters in the Commonwealth. So maybe that points to there being, you know, real merit to the idea.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. I mean, so we could just say, well, let's do 45 days or I mean, I just threw out 30 cause I thought, well, it's in the middle, but I'm fine with 30. Um, if we want to suggest 30, I mean, and if the call-in center has something to say about that, they'll speak at the meeting.
[Moreshi]: I think so. Because I think, I think we all shared the same concern. I'm like, yeah, you know, I think we're all receptive to evidence that we're wrong.
[David Zabner]: Okay, so let's just I don't imagine it will ever particularly matter. But would you all be comfortable then also adding like City Council can speed that up. right, can like speed up the appointment.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yes, absolutely.
[Moreshi]: I think some of the language we looked at allows for them to vote sooner than that. Yeah. So as long as, you know, they could vote the next day, presumably.
[David Zabner]: I just want to write it into our notes that that's what we're intending.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay, 30 days with language to allow confirmation or to allow sooner. I mean, I guess the sort of maybe complication with that is that the process that we talked about doesn't really involve a public confirmation. It involves sort of like passive confirmation. Isn't that what we talked about? So they're not actually voting. They're only objecting.
[Milva McDonald]: So how would that work with that process?
[Moreshi]: So what if I tweak this first bullet? Appointments take effect after 30 days unless City Council acts to approve it sooner.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[Moreshi]: Or votes to veto.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Okay. That sounds good.
[Moreshi]: Does the approval, do we want that to be by majority or by two-thirds as well?
[Milva McDonald]: Well,
[David Zabner]: I think two thirds is reasonable. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: What do you think?
[Moreshi]: Yeah. I hadn't thought about it. Um, if you're both go two thirds, I am too.
[David Zabner]: Um, either way, I think the, the kind of the goal of this section was to say in rare cases, the city council is going to vote on this. Right. Um, and if we're talking about rare cases, I think we could almost as comfortably make it unanimous. I don't think we want it to be unanimous, but I think two thirds is perfectly reasonable.
[Milva McDonald]: I think two-thirds for the rejection. For the approval, we can keep it the same. We can keep it the same. I mean, the approval only happens if they all agree and they go, well, you know what, if we just get, if we publicly say we all agree, then these people can get in sooner, right? Into their position. What do you think to me?
[David Zabner]: I think I think both should be 2 thirds.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, okay. I also wanted to bring up another issue when we talked about the. Giving the city council power to remove. already appointed officials with unanimous vote. The call center was, they said that's really uncommon and that, I don't know, they had some concerns about it. So we can leave it in there and hear what they say at the meeting. Okay, what do you think?
[David Zabner]: I'd like to leave it in there and hear what they say, yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Moreshi]: Okay. I think if the city council can do something unanimously. then maybe.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I mean, I'll let them speak to what the concern, what the, you know, what the potential hazards might be. I'll let them, we'll let them speak to that. Okay, that sounds good. Okay, so does that pretty much cover the committee, the sort of opening of the discussion for committees and commissions? I think so yeah it's it's interesting because I took a look at that document that the call and center gave us on the mayoral authority with the appendix where it's sort of so I was looking at the language other other charters with the city council confirmation process and. I mean, they say more complicated things, but I did find, I think it was Newton that was sort of what, I was trying to find one that described what we had talked about. And I did finally find, it was Newton, I think it was, yeah. Oh, and Newburyport. So I thought, okay, we're on the right track. Other cities have to do this, but most of them said things like creating standing committees and whatnot. And the way we're doing it, it gives the city council the ability to make their own decision about how they handle it, which I think makes sense.
[David Zabner]: do you guys yeah i mean we haven't talked at all yet about how uh multi-member like permanent boards and commissions are created um i don't imagine that that will be complicated or contentious but we haven't talked about that bit yet i mean how do you remember how that um falls into articles two and three is that because is is aren't there some that are sort of state
[Milva McDonald]: Um, sort of state.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. Disability commission in the city in town, for example, and that'll say who appoints how, um, as for other committees, I think. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I don't know that they'd be in articles two and three, but you know, the charter could create them. Presumably.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, what, I mean, are they generally created by ordinance?
[Moreshi]: I see why they couldn't be. That's a good call and center question.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, so let's let's let some. Let's maybe we can, we can ask that question up in the, at the December meeting and they can talk about it. I mean, um. You know, like, for instance, this, this committee is an ad hoc committee that was created by the mayor. So even what we're, even these guidelines that we're putting, if they, if they do make it to the charter, I don't think they would apply to our committee because it's an ad hoc committee.
[Moreshi]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Do you agree with that, John?
[Moreshi]: Yeah, I think any, the mayors, and I would think the city council too, can create a committee to advise them. Right, exactly. It comes from their power. I think if we tried to, you know, usurp the mayor's role, like substantively we'd run into a problem, but since we're just advisory, I don't think we need, I would guess we probably don't have to account for it.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Okay, so should we look, do we need to talk any more about this or are we pretty? Pretty good.
[David Zabner]: I mean, I'd like to leave just like a little flag to come back and look at how boards and commissions are created. Okay. But I don't know that we need to go into that right at this moment.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I have it down. It'll be in the minutes and hope and we can bring it up at the meeting in December.
[David Zabner]: I'll add it to this list as well.
[Moreshi]: Okay. I think flagging conversation topics.
[Milva McDonald]: is helpful. Hopefully we will have a substantive discussion on this with the whole committee in December. Let's see. I'm trying to look at my agenda. Here it is. Basically, the agenda is working through. Actually, we do have ad hoc commission appointments and powers on this list. I don't know. I don't know if the charter, what do you think, John, about, and David, about the?
[Moreshi]: I think ad hoc, probably by definition is.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I think we don't mean ad hoc there. I think we just mean commission appointments and powers, right? Committee, I mean,
[David Zabner]: Like we're an advisory committee. Right. I think you could also call us an ad hoc commission.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. We are definitely an ad hoc committee.
[David Zabner]: Yes. Um, so probably what we mean is ad hoc committee there and maybe not commission.
[Milva McDonald]: I think, I feel like what we've been, that we're, this is just the minutes. Let's go back to your documents. That's, uh, that actually is showing us more sort of where we are. Whoops. Um, do you want to share screen to be because you, I think you have it handy. Okay. Um, go ahead, John. What were you saying?
[Moreshi]: Well, I was going to say, I mean, since we don't formally have a charter, any committee. Yeah. Okay.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. So that is next on the list. Um, and I, I guess what I'm not sure about is whether that's in the purview of the charter, like ad hoc by nature is. ad hoc, right?
[Moreshi]: I think if there was a, I suppose we could create some committees in charge, but I would guess the ordinances could probably do it.
[David Zabner]: Was our committee created by ordinance or did the mayor just kind of decide?
[Milva McDonald]: Yes.
[David Zabner]: So maybe we just want to say like, do we want to give the mayor explicit powers to create this type of committee?
[Adam Hurtubise]: I don't think they need it.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, Charity, the mayor has it, and I believe the city council does too, right? They can create an ad hoc committee, an advisory committee. I mean, you know, such a committee has limited powers. That's why our only power, we're just, you know, we're just advisory.
[David Zabner]: So, um, uh, So, but like, so here in the definition, this is in some definition. is the only place I found advisory committee.
[Milva McDonald]: Yes, it does say advisory.
[David Zabner]: You're right. So it looks like nobody else writes about them, is I guess what I'm saying here.
[Milva McDonald]: But this is in definitions of whatever Green is. I think it was Pittsfield, right? They do have it in the definitions, which is interesting.
[David Zabner]: But I don't know if they actually... And it says that the committee is appointed by the mayor. Yeah, which implies that the city council cannot create an advisory committee, I would assume, or that it's subject to different rules in some way.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. And this is just definitions, right? So, so this doesn't actually give any powers. It's just definitions. A multiple member body is included. So whatever they say, multiple member body, that's what they mean. Um, I don't know, this is a good question.
[David Zabner]: Do you think we need- Not including an advisory committee appointed by the mayor.
[Milva McDonald]: Oh, there's the answer, okay.
[David Zabner]: So it's not a multiple member body.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. That makes sense. Okay. So yeah, and the city council is not included in the school committee or an advisory committee appointment by the mayor, but it doesn't say city council. So yeah, I don't know. I don't know if, City councils generally do that. I mean, a city council is kind of a, you know, it's a council as opposed to one. I mean, the mayor has staff, but council is more of a discussion body. That's all I'm thinking. And then they have all their subcommittees. So maybe they don't, maybe they don't generally form advisory committees. I don't know.
[David Zabner]: But I'm just going to write a little note here. uh other um starters don't mention it and then i'll just cross this out because it looks like uh it looks like maybe just something we don't we either don't have to write about it at all or it's not in this in these two sections i feel comfortable we want to write about it i'm comfortable leaving it out what do you think john
[Moreshi]: Yeah, no, me too. But I would like to earmark, but I would love maybe our next meeting, we can ask the call center for sort of a committee commission primer.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay.
[Moreshi]: I think that'd be it. Not anything formal, but just like a quick rundown. Oh yeah, when I was on the city council on X, we created commissions and these are the boundaries, something like that.
[Milva McDonald]: No, no, you're absolutely right. And I actually think that we should all ask them to do that as sort of an entree into our discussion.
[Moreshi]: I think that'd be really helpful.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I will definitely do that. Okay, department heads. Has anybody done any research about that? I don't remember what the other charters tend to say. Oh, thank you, David. Okay, there we go. No, that's not, that's something different. I think it would be in the mayor. I think it would be in article three with the executive power. That's what I'm guessing, but.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. I'm looking at way more.
[David Zabner]: The mayor shall submit to the city council the name of each person the mayor desires to appoint to any city office as a department head.
[Milva McDonald]: And this is Melrose, okay. So yeah, because that's what we're, when we're looking at this for city council, we're trying to determine whether we want to put into the charter that the city council has some role in the department head hiring.
[David Zabner]: So. It seems like they all pretty much require to refer to the city council with stuff. Personally, I would be perfectly comfortable saying it works exactly the same as for multi-member boards and commissions.
[Milva McDonald]: So that they could, so that the person wouldn't, so this is, I think what you were talking about before John, where if we do it the same and it's, I mean, they can't start their job for 30 days, right? Because these are actual jobs as opposed to, volunteer position. I mean, volunteer positions are jobs, too. These are paid jobs.
[Moreshi]: Actually, I'm looking at Weymouth now. Appointments made by the mayor shall become effective on the 30th day following the date on which notice of the proposed appointment was filed with the clerk of the council. Good. So members of the town council shall, within the 30 days, vote to reject it, or unless town councilors shall vote to affirm it.
[Milva McDonald]: That's exactly what we said.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, no, I think we just ripped off totally realizing.
[Milva McDonald]: That's awesome. Um, so, so was that, did that apply to department heads, what you just read, John?
[Moreshi]: I believe so because, um, they cross cross-reference each other. So the appointment of department heads, that was, um, 210 in the council section about their power. And I'm just, I'm pulling up the. 3-3 appointments by the mayor, town officers, and department heads. Mayor May in writing, oh, that's removal suspension. You said Melrose?
[Milva McDonald]: All city officers and department heads and the members of Melrose, so that's- They're just combined. Yeah. So, all appointments to a Muslim member of Adi shall be in accordance with section 5-2 of, oh my goodness. Mayor shall fill a vacancy.
[David Zabner]: This part's interesting to me.
[Milva McDonald]: Subject to the consent of the mayor, appoint, promote, and Oh, that that just that's giving department heads authority, right?
[David Zabner]: Yep. So only although explicitly giving the mayor kind of authority over them as well.
[Milva McDonald]: Right, right. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I don't know enough about how. City Hall operates to know. I mean, I feel like I need to know more before I can say whether I think that's a good idea or not, but.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, my read of it is all the power ultimately flows from the mayor. The mayor can delegate it to subordinates, you know, for so long as she wants to, presumably.
[Milva McDonald]: So, That's pretty much probably just standard language. I think the big question for us is, does the city council get to confirm department heads as well as members of multi-member boards and commissions?
[David Zabner]: I think having it exactly the same as multi-member boards and commissions is good. I think the real question is like removal And by the mayor or the city council, do we want those to be different than the way they are for me?
[Moreshi]: You know, it's funny because David, you mentioned that and I was hesitant, but as I was thinking about our last meeting, I came around to your view on appointments that it makes sense for them to be the same. But I do think removal should be different. I would be inclined for department heads to let the mayor remove. I'm actually not sure how it works now, but. you know, the worst, I can't even imagine wanting to remove someone and you can't. Yeah, no, no, I agree.
[Milva McDonald]: You mean for the council? You can't imagine that on the part of the council?
[Moreshi]: Just the mayor going to try to remove someone only getting... I don't know what other cities and towns do, I just...
[Milva McDonald]: But we did say, but we said the mayor could, the council could override a mayor's removal with two thirds majority, right? Is that what we said?
[Moreshi]: For board members, board members and commissioners. I'm thinking about department heads. Do we want to?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I don't, I agree. I don't, I don't think, I think it should be up to the mayor. They work for the mayor. I think it should be up for the mayor, up to the mayor.
[David Zabner]: That's my feeling. What do you think about city council removal?
[Milva McDonald]: I don't think city council should be able to remove them. And I'm not even sure that I'm gonna have to see what the Collins Center says about the city council being able to remove the- Multimember boards? Yeah. I feel like, you know, especially with the department heads, they really do work directly with the mayor. They really are under the mayor.
[Moreshi]: I think that's right. And just personal dynamics can matter in that sort of circumstance, even if someone is perfectly qualified.
[Milva McDonald]: I wouldn't wanna micromanage that too much. And does that also mean that we wouldn't recommend that the city council have to be able to reject if the mayor decides to remove a department head? City Council, there's no City Council involvement in removals. Is that, is that what we're saying?
[David Zabner]: Yeah. That's what we're saying.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. Maybe the mayor has to notify the city council.
[David Zabner]: I don't think the mayor, you know, like, I think, you know, if somebody is acting poorly, I think the mayor should be able to fire people when they want to fire people. Oh, I agree. You know, there's a piece of me that, like, thinks the city council should be able to remove by unanimous vote, but I also understand that these are ultimately employees of the mayor and, you know, there are other ways that the city council can use power to make the mayor fire someone if they really need to be fired.
[Moreshi]: So I think that's fine. That's what Weymouth does. They're pretty definitive about it.
[Milva McDonald]: So, and I'm still, I have to say, I mean, I'm fine with putting in you know, that the department heads, the confirmation process should be the same as the multi-member boards, but I want to hear more on, I want to learn more about that actually. Um, and, and, and we are all going to learn more about it before we have a final vote anyway. So.
[Moreshi]: I think that's a great, a great example of like the, the practical reality being really helpful. You know, as the info you got from call center on the timeline, I thought it was helpful.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, yeah.
[David Zabner]: Hiring of non-department heads, that seems like something that just flows from the mayor through the department heads? I think so.
[Milva McDonald]: And I don't know that the charter covers all of that. I think it, cause it doesn't cover like every employee in the city hall. Yeah.
[Moreshi]: Usually it's pretty, it's pretty vague. Like may hire such other. Right. Yeah.
[SPEAKER_02]: Okay. Should just learn how control shift X. Yeah.
[David Zabner]: I just tried, you know, in making this, I just tried to make a comprehensive list as possible. Yep. Similarly firing and suspension of city employees. I imagine kind of similar situation. Yeah.
[Moreshi]: The other thing too, you probably run into union rules and that exactly.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Yeah, so we probably, yeah, that's right. Okay, so we already have the city council appointing the city clerk, and I don't see any reason to change that, do you?
[Moreshi]: Pretty standard.
[Milva McDonald]: I guess I haven't carefully looked at the section of the charter that covered city clerk, and there might be a change, there might be something else that we want to add to it, And John, you were gonna look into that clerk of the committees, right?
[Moreshi]: I didn't spend that much time on it, but I didn't find much. I wasn't as aggressive as I hoped to be, but it looked like a lot of people do the double duty. City clerk is the clerk of the council.
[Milva McDonald]: City clerk is the clerk of, so they're both one and the same?
[Moreshi]: The same person, yeah. Okay, gotcha. That was my impression. I wasn't exactly sure. No, Pittsfield, the city clerk is elected.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, but I don't think we want to do that, do you?
[Moreshi]: I don't. That's the default in the general laws, I think, still. Really? I believe so. You would elect everybody back then, the treasurer.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. I feel like it works well in Medford to, you know, the relationship with the city clerk and the council.
[David Zabner]: So the city council points by two thirds vote, by majority vote? I don't know.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, let's see. What does it say? Does it have what it says in our charter now? Because it should be in here. I mean, there's... I don't see it anywhere. So it's probably not in our charter, which means I don't know where the procedure comes from.
[David Zabner]: I mean, it could also just be in a separate section, right?
[Milva McDonald]: Maybe, but... I don't, I thought it was, I thought it was in the article too about, you know, that the city council would.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, I think officers elected by town council in Weymouth. I'm sorry, I keep looking at Weymouth. It's just always- That's okay. That and Framingham is the most recent.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, city clerk is gonna be in here a lot, because the city clerk does a lot of stuff, right?
[Moreshi]: Excuse me, I'm famous as a clerk of the council as well. City clerk and clerk of the council.
[Milva McDonald]: But you think that in practice, that's often the same person?
[Moreshi]: I think historic, I think it's newer to have the clerk of the council. Yeah, so the town council shall elect a clerk of the council who may be the town clerk to serve.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[Moreshi]: I wonder how often it actually does.
[Milva McDonald]: Does that give them the option to actually have another person if they want to, but they don't have to? Yeah. I mean, so that theoretically could be something that we could add, right?
[Moreshi]: I think this would be something worth stealing.
[Milva McDonald]: And the clerk of the council is probably just somebody who helps the city clerk. right?
[Moreshi]: I think they do the council's like the city clerk does elections. You know, they they're the official keeper of records, whereas the clerk of the council does the minutes and all that.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, which is what our city clerk does now.
[Moreshi]: Right. I think I like the idea whether it's the clerk of the council framework or something else. Just to give the council some ability to have a staffer.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, so So we want to, so for City Clerk, we want to leave as is in terms of, you know, appointment.
[David Zabner]: So the current is the City Council appoints or the Mayor appoints with City Council approval? City Council. Okay, cool. By two-thirds vote?
[Milva McDonald]: That I don't know.
[David Zabner]: I, weirdly, like I, I looked through every single mention of a city clerk and I did not see a single thing about how they're appointed. Oh, here it is. The council elect a city clerk to serve a term of three years. That's Melrose.
[Unidentified]: Yeah.
[David Zabner]: And section two, eight.
[SPEAKER_02]: I think that's the only thing.
[Milva McDonald]: And it doesn't say anything about the vote. It doesn't say. I mean, I guess if it says something like it in the charter and it doesn't specify a two-thirds vote, is the default just a majority vote?
[Moreshi]: I think so. I believe so. I'm assuming it's a majority.
[Moreshi]: I think two-thirds vote for appointment is tough. I'm sorry, I cut you off.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. No, it's fine.
[David Zabner]: So we don't want to- Can I just copy what we have from Melrose basically?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, and that mentions the clerk of the committee, right?
[Moreshi]: I can paste in the clerk of the committee stuff from Weymouth if it's, or the clerk of the council.
[Milva McDonald]: Clerk of council, thank you.
[Moreshi]: No, no, no. I mean, what's the difference?
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I do like it because it gives them the option of putting that in or not, right?
[Moreshi]: I think that's right. David, I'm going to paste this right under you. Go for it. Sorry for the. I'll fix it up. Don't worry about it.
[Milva McDonald]: And we'll have to say city too.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. Although we could become a town if we wanted to, you know, just stylize ourselves.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, so the, these kind of came from two different charters, but notice that the city clerk says three and the clerk of the council says two years. And if they, if they're the same person, then, um,
[David Zabner]: So the reason I think that that's fine for two years for the city council is that that at least currently is the city councils. Um, I bet that's what, uh, yeah, that's how long they serve. And so a city council, a new city council could elect a new. Right.
[Milva McDonald]: But if we were going to put in the provision that the clerk of the council could be the same person as the city clerk, then would we want to make them the same?
[Moreshi]: I actually, I like that now that David's pointed that out, I like it because city clerk is independent of the council. So it's off, you know, it's three years. So I like this.
[Milva McDonald]: I know, but I, but I'm saying, should we make the same term for the clerk of the council? If we're going to add the provision that the clerk of the council may be the same person as the city clerk?
[Moreshi]: No, I understand.
[David Zabner]: I could see shortening the city clerk to two years. But I think definitely the clerk or the council's term should be as long as the city council is in session, right? You know, basically one election length.
[Moreshi]: I kind of, I like them being different. And actually that looks to be what Weymouth does actually, three years and two.
[Milva McDonald]: So are we going to suggest that we want the provision and that it can be the same? Because it doesn't say there that can, oh wait, it does say who may be the town clerk, but we want to put city clerk. Okay.
[David Zabner]: Interestingly, it also doesn't have anything about removal, which maybe I'm just a little too obsessed with it. And it seems like most of these charters say very little about removal.
[Moreshi]: My memory is if you're appointed for a specific term, you really can't be removed unless it's expressly provided for. So maybe what we wanna do is sort of a blanket removal section that says, unless otherwise provided in another section of this charter, any person appointed by the mayor can be removed by the mayor for a cause.
[David Zabner]: Well, so this is the city clerk appointed by the city council.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, we have to say that too. That's a good question. We don't want to have someone we can't get rid of.
[Milva McDonald]: There might be a blanket section on removal that we're going to have to put in the charter, right?
[Moreshi]: I think so.
[Milva McDonald]: And then will we, and maybe the call-in center is going to help us with this, but then will the language have to say, may be removed as provided in section X. Oh, here we have.
[Moreshi]: That's probably the tightest thing.
[David Zabner]: Any person appointed or elected by the town council may be removed or suspended by the town council. I think that's good. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Oh, the personnel? Okay, that says by the same as those contained in the personnel ordinance for the... I don't know.
[Moreshi]: It's probably hearing, notice, that kind of stuff.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, let's see what this one says. Actually, is this one Medford's? No, because I thought Medford was red. Yeah, this is Medford.
[Unidentified]: This is Medford, yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. Written statement with the city clerk. OK. So that's basically what we said written down, right? So we would keep. So I'll say keep section 54.
[SPEAKER_00]: We probably want to update it though.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, we could keep slash update. Okay. So, um, but that doesn't, that's, that wouldn't apply to the city clerk because the mayor can't, you know, so, um, either we have to put in something else or, um, I think we could just do something similar by the city council may be removed by the city council pursuant to the process and the personnel ordinance or So I'm just going to say, make sure to include a removal provision.
[Moreshi]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[Moreshi]: I bet we could copy that from an existing charter, you know, some good tight language.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. Now, are we good with clerk?
[David Zabner]: I'm happy with it.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: I think so. I like it.
[Milva McDonald]: Auditor. We don't, city council, our city, I mean, I think some cities, the city council appoints the auditor, right? Is that right? I don't, right now, right now it's a hired person. We don't, we don't elect the auditor.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. No, I personally think the auditor should be set, like, The auditor should not be an employee of the mayor is the thing I think about auditors.
[SPEAKER_02]: That's a good point. I guess, what does it say now?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, let's look and let's see. Let's see what our sources say.
[David Zabner]: So in Weymouth, the town council chooses a town auditor. Yeah. And apparently only Weymouth writes about it from what I can find.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. Do we have an auditor now, for example?
[Milva McDonald]: I know. I'm embarrassed to say, I'm not sure.
[Moreshi]: I'm Googling it. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Let's look at it.
[David Zabner]: I have to say, I really like what Weymouth wrote for town auditor.
[Moreshi]: So. So yeah, Weymouth and Framingham are the newest, I think. There might be one newer, but I think they're very similar, and I think they're all great models.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I'm not sure we do. Because what comes up for you? Assessor comes up, right?
[Moreshi]: Assessor, and I got something else. Yeah, so I don't believe we do.
[Milva McDonald]: So, and I guess, so we don't have 1. so do we need 1, I guess, is a question because I feel like there's another portion of the charter where you can. Require periodic independent audits of the city. Maybe the maybe that's different things. Maybe an audit. Maybe a city auditor would do something else.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, I, this is definitely something we should get a feel for what the city does, you know, because if they're, if they have an auditing firm they use, you know, maybe we want to lay out the process right like, you know, you have to periodically put out for bids or
[David Zabner]: I mean, so at least Iowa at the moment has a rather famous auditor, um, who's a character. And I mean, you know, in general, the, basically the, the purpose of the auditor is, uh, to be the, you know, the, the corruption police officer. Right. Um, and just be kind of looking to see if money's being misspent. if processes are being followed incorrectly, that kind of thing. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: And so having that be done by someone who works for the city or is appointed or elected by, I mean, elected is different, but it's different to me than having the periodic independent audits.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, would you need both?
[David Zabner]: I don't know, I think you would only need one or the other, but I think the point is by laying it out in the charter. So the big part here is one, the town auditor shall make periodic reports subject to however often the town council wants them. But then all officials of the town shall cooperate with the town auditor in the performance of the audit function is like the real powerful bit. right, is that the auditor can compel all kinds of information to look for issues.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, so I think, I do think we need more information. I think we need to research what Menford does now, you know, when are there audits, how often, who does them, and then think about whether adding an auditor is a good idea.
[David Zabner]: And, and I think it's a really good idea. I'm like very pro having an auditor and they don't necessarily, you know, it doesn't have to be a full-time position. The city council, it seems like probably gets to set how much they're paid. Um, and so, you know, there's a certain flexibility for that, but are none of the other charters we have.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, I also would like to know how many cities have them. you know, or how many, or, you know, how many cities have city auditors versus just having independent audits? Um, do we, do the other charters say any, is this the only one we found, David, that has, um, It's, um, yeah, the Weymouth is the only one that mentions it, at least that's in this list. Um, can you just search for audit? It would come up, right. Even with auditor. see an independent audit that's that's what i was so that's in another section but um yeah just just to compare so yeah so this is so this is another option right um an annual independent audit yeah i'd be interested to hear
[Moreshi]: sort of what the town does, and then also what standard practices.
[Unidentified]: Yeah.
[Moreshi]: I always imagine an auditor coming from the outside, so you hire somebody, frankly.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. So does somebody want to volunteer to research Medford's current audit procedures?
[Moreshi]: Could we ask our liaison? Who's name is?
[Milva McDonald]: Frances. Okay.
[Moreshi]: Would she be able to point me in the right direction as to who to ask?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Do you want to just contact her directly? Sure.
[Moreshi]: Okay. If you could send me her email, I'll... I will. Thank you very much.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. And then we can... Yeah, because if we decide on the auditor, that goes in article two. If we decide on the independent auditor, it goes in another. And I will send it to you.
[Moreshi]: Thank you.
[Milva McDonald]: We can't say we're done with this. I think we need more information, right, on the auditor question.
[David Zabner]: Yeah, so I put research current procedures and return to this later in the- Sounds good. Okay. The next thing that's on that list is City Council staff and City Council staffers.
[Milva McDonald]: So, oh, I don't know about staffers.
[David Zabner]: It's an exhaustive list. Yeah, yeah, no, I get it.
[Milva McDonald]: I get it. I get it. But I'm like, okay, maybe staff, but I don't think I don't think individual, I don't think they should have individual staff personally.
[Moreshi]: I, you know, it'd be well, it'd be interesting to have a full time staff for part time.
[David Zabner]: I mean, they wouldn't necessarily have to be full time staff either. Right.
[Moreshi]: I suppose that's true. I think the utility is, is limited.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead.
[David Zabner]: No, I was going to say, I, I, I think in general, I agree that staff makes more sense than staffers. Um, uh, having talked to some current city Councilors, I know that they find like the stuff we're doing right now is an arduous process, right? Like writing. Figuring out getting the language into a good place. I think for that reason, it makes a lot of sense to have a city council, have the city council able to hire some kind of staff, whether that's lawyers or an intern to help write stuff, or I don't quite know what. But yeah, staffers is probably, probably excessive given the current state. I also, so I was looking, I was gonna see, Let's see, it would be in article three, right? That we would have.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I feel like when we looked at this last week, did we see that there wasn't much mentioned, but there was, I think it was, I can't remember if it was Pithfield, but there was one of them that I felt like had pretty ideal language. And it was just very general. But it was the subject to appropriation thing, right? Do you remember that part where it said city council may, subject to appropriation, the city council may hire staff?
[Moreshi]: Yeah, subject to appropriation, the city council may employ staff as it deems necessary.
[Milva McDonald]: Right. Now, I don't know exactly how subject to appropriation works. That probably means they have to get an appropriation from the mayor, right?
[Moreshi]: Well, that's what I was gonna say. I mean, so maybe we steal the Pittsfield language, but then think through, because the clerk of the council, you know, is established, right? They have the power to have a clerk of the council. I suppose the mayor could zero out that role if they wanted to. I don't know. I think one or two dedicated staff, clerk of the council, and then sort of a researcher, drafter, I think would be really valuable.
[Milva McDonald]: So that's different than just saying that they may hire staff as deemed necessary. That's saying two specific positions.
[Moreshi]: That's why I think I was drawn to the clerk of the council structure. Yeah, it's true. I'm glad we're not doing the budget.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, I think that putting in subject to, you know, exactly what it says in Pittsfield is, I think it was Pittsfield, makes sense.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I do too.
[Milva McDonald]: Because, you know, because it's in the charter then and, you know, yes, it has to be appropriation, but, um, But I can't imagine that it would be turned down without a good reason.
[David Zabner]: Is it Melrose you said that has this?
[Milva McDonald]: Was it Pittsfield, John?
[Moreshi]: Pittsfield. OK. I'll paste it in right now.
[SPEAKER_02]: OK. Do we want to?
[David Zabner]: Oh, that's for later. Do I have compensation on here? I do. Great. Okay, and we're agreed staffers for individual council members. We certainly don't want to write it in here. I guess technically CC staff, they could appropriate and hire one staff member per member.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't think they would ever.
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's not likely.
[Moreshi]: I think, I know Boston does, obviously. I think Cambridge might have dedicated staffers per Councilor, but their system is so different. Not that different, but it's different.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, they, yeah, they have the city manager too.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: And they have probably more money.
[Moreshi]: That's certainly true.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. I mean, you know, we're going to go through all this with the whole committee and other points will be made and but But I think that makes sense. So removal. Oh, oh my goodness. Is that an article. I mean, that's removal of all three of those things, I feel like, because article two is legislative and article three is executive. So this is gonna be in that more wherever the general section about removal is. But removal of city council members and mayor would be, well, that would be more like the recall, right?
[Moreshi]: I think, yeah, I think we're definitely in this subcommittee gonna have to tackle vacancies, but I'm not sure. I'm just scanning the windows I have open right now. I think that is more recall-ish.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, and that's a whole section of the charter, a different section of the charter. But vacancies is part of what we're doing, I think.
[Moreshi]: Absolutely.
[Milva McDonald]: There is a provision in our charter currently for city council vacancies. Um, it just says that, uh, the next, um, the next highest vote getter takes a slot.
[Moreshi]: I think that's fairly common. I think that's the standard. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: We don't have a provision for the mayoral vacancy, but that's our, that's article three.
[David Zabner]: So let's, uh, let's get to it when we get to it. I don't quite know what I meant by city council committee appointments.
[Milva McDonald]: So city council vacancies keep us. I don't either.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Maybe that's more like staff.
[David Zabner]: Yeah, I think what I was thinking was, can the city council create advisory committees?
[Milva McDonald]: That's a question that, yeah.
[David Zabner]: I don't, we don't probably something that we don't need to call out in the, in the charter anyway.
[Moreshi]: Right. Create their own committees. You know, I think, I believe that's their own rules. Great, I would guess.
[David Zabner]: So, then the last 1 on this 1st appointment section is creation of multi members, boards and commissions. And we had questions about that, right?
[Moreshi]: That was on our- I think we'll hopefully get a primer on that.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right.
[David Zabner]: Vacancies then, I guess.
[Milva McDonald]: Should, do we want to keep it the way it is now? I mean, we can look at the language quickly if you want. Basically just, yeah. It just says, yeah, there it is. There's Medford's.
[Moreshi]: The only thing we may want to add is if no one wants to serve.
[Milva McDonald]: Right.
[David Zabner]: Like if they go through the whole list of. Yeah. And receive the highest number of votes.
[Milva McDonald]: So add something in case nobody is eligible and willing to serve.
[Moreshi]: Maybe the city council can pick somebody to fill the vacancy. I mean, I guess I'm less concerned about it at large, but I would hate to see a ward, if we do go to ward representation, go with that representation for a year. And special elections are expensive.
[Milva McDonald]: So if we say, if no one is eligible and willing to serve, council may appoint.
[Moreshi]: I'm comfortable with that idea. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: It's only going to be for, you know, a short period of time. Yeah. Okay.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. Person who is like otherwise qualified, you know, residency and that kind of stuff is, is eligible and willing to serve.
[SPEAKER_02]: And willing to serve the city council. Or I probably must.
[SPEAKER_02]: What's the language? No defeated candidate.
[David Zabner]: Should we say like within 30 days? 45 days? Within 30 days of vacancy?
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[Moreshi]: I just think it's, I'm thinking, you know, is that enough time to get somebody? Because presumably, you know, I don't know if we want to lay out the process, but presumably they'll seek applications.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Moreshi]: You know, I don't know if they'll want to have interviews.
[Milva McDonald]: 60, that's good.
[Moreshi]: I think, yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: No, do you think longer?
[Unidentified]: I think 60 is good.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, there could be only, you know, nine months left in the, Yeah, at least.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay.
[David Zabner]: I also maybe wanna say like the, what if the city council can't agree on a person?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I mean, we aren't, we just say must appoint, we're not laying out the process.
[Moreshi]: Maybe we just give the city council the power to appoint, and if they don't, they don't. So we say may appoint a replacement, period. I think that's reasonable. Because even then, we don't need, I don't know if we need 60 days.
[David Zabner]: I agree. May appoint a replacement is probably more reasonable, as I think through the reality of must appoint.
[Moreshi]: No, I like the idea of it, frankly, but I'm just, there's a lot of,
[Milva McDonald]: Permutations you end up being like okay, then the mayor gets to a point somebody Well, the other thing that's good is the call-in center, you know, we'll give all this to the call-in center when we make the final Decisions and they will draft it and if there's language that's gonna create a problem.
[David Zabner]: They'll immediately, you know, I'll say wait a minute, you know that will cause such and such so So that's the City Council
[Milva McDonald]: Is that it for the city council? We're done with article two? No.
[David Zabner]: No, no, no. I'm saying vacancies.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Oh, okay.
[David Zabner]: Um, how about the mayor and the, uh, the school board is not within our purview, so we don't have to worry about that one.
[Milva McDonald]: Right. And do we want to, I mean, technically the vacancies for mayor will go under article three, but we can, we can do them together if you want.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. I think there's absolutely nothing in our charter right now to deal with a vacancy in the mayor's office. So, I mean, do we, do the other charters say anything about it?
[Moreshi]: So in the general laws, it looks like there's an election to fill the vacancy for the unexpired term.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[Moreshi]: Uh, so that's, that's what would happen in Medford or, um, well, it depends on the timing or the city council shall elect by majority vote. One of its members as mayor for the remainder of the term.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, maybe do singular since it's only one person for this one. What do you think?
[David Zabner]: Oh, yeah, you're absolutely right. Oh, that's too many. I'm sure it's an article three somewhere. Let me look. I think so. Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: vacancy there it is 39. Okay. This section addresses protocols for handling.
[David Zabner]: Okay. So Melrose does a special election. President of city council to serve as mayor.
[Milva McDonald]: Wait a minute, so that, because this is the same, this is Melrose, so they say, okay, so special election, if it's during the first two years, but if the vacancy occurs in the third or fourth year of the term, I mean, they must already have a four-year term, then the president of the city council acts as mayor. And then you give them all the powers. And Pittsfield says special election. John, did you see, is that basically what the state law says? Are these just sort of reiterating the state law?
[Moreshi]: Yeah, looking quickly. 59A, I forget if this is attached to a particular form of government, you know, a particular city, but anytime during the first year, special election during the second year, city council elects. Okay. Contemplate the two year term. So it's essentially the same.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, but these these charters have a four year term and we are going to be discussing that. So we would modify it. So if it were a four year term, so basically, They're just taking the state law. I mean, I think it's a good idea to put it in the charter because then people know, you know, if they, it's, they don't have to look up mass general laws.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. Well, that's just for a plan B anyway.
[Milva McDonald]: Right. But it looks pretty much the same as what we've seen in these charters.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Oh, I definitely think we should put it in there.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Should we say 90 days?
[Milva McDonald]: Uh, I don't know how long it takes the elections department to get a special election.
[Moreshi]: And there was no election timing. We got to be careful because it's like, oh, you got to get the signatures. Like state law comes into play.
[Milva McDonald]: But for a special election in this case, would you have to get, you wouldn't have to get signatures, right? Um, the candidates have to get signatures.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. Yeah. So Melrose does 120. I saw Pittsfield does 90 days for a special election. Um,
[Moreshi]: I think actually 90 to 120 is language I used to see a fair amount relative to special elections.
[David Zabner]: Within 90 days is Weymouth as well. Weymouth says within 90 days. It also doesn't say who sets it, sets the date. Although I assume, you know, the city clerk sets the date. The city council or the clerk?
[Moreshi]: Oh, I don't know. I assume the city council ordered the election. Let's see what it says.
[Milva McDonald]: And they add that if a regular town election is going to be held within 120 days, then no special election.
[David Zabner]: Yeah, the city council sets the, yeah.
[Moreshi]: And so what are the, yeah, they, within 120 days. So I think that makes sense. It lets you account for holidays and.
[David Zabner]: So special elections set by city council. within, you think, 120 days?
[Moreshi]: Yeah, I think that's reasonable.
[SPEAKER_02]: As long as next election not within one year, something like that?
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, and then it just stays president of city council until the election.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, this would be a good opportunity if call centers draft in a forest.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, they will. And do we have, yeah, and they'll know what needs to be said.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Okay.
[David Zabner]: Do we want the president of the city council to immediately become the acting mayor or should the city council choose an acting mayor
[Milva McDonald]: from among the council.
[David Zabner]: Yeah, from among the council. I think either way, from among the council.
[Moreshi]: I mean, is it possible they could choose from among city staff? You know, maybe the department head would be better. Oh, that could be reasonable.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, because they have more experience with the, I mean, president of city council kind of gives a clear line of succession, right?
[David Zabner]: Right. So maybe we say immediately becomes acting mayor Or should we just give the president of the city council the power to appoint an acting mayor?
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I don't know. I mean, can we look back and see what the, cause if the president of the city council becomes the acting mayor, then they're not the president of the city council anymore, right? And then we have a, I mean, do they do both?
[SPEAKER_02]: Well, so, um, it varies. So it was, I think it was down.
[Milva McDonald]: It was down.
[David Zabner]: Oh yeah, you're right.
[SPEAKER_02]: Oh, now we have the powers of the acting mayor.
[David Zabner]: Oh, delegation of authority.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Well, this is section three, so.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Um, right.
[Milva McDonald]: City council. So this one says president shall become mayor, president of city council.
[David Zabner]: Uh, yeah. You can see in the city.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[David Zabner]: Right. Um, but this only happens if they aren't having a special election.
[Milva McDonald]: Right, so we probably don't want to say that the president of the city council immediately becomes acting mayor because then we create a vacancy on the city council, right?
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right.
[Milva McDonald]: But it's unclear what happens between the time that there's a vacancy and the time of the special election. Is there just no mayor?
[David Zabner]: For the Melrose one, yeah, it's not clear here. So for Pittsfield, they have the city council shall serve as acting mayor until the vacancy is filled.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. Which is what I wrote the first time through. And it doesn't say that they lose their job as city council. Right. So they would do both? They're doing both.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't know. I don't like that. Because they're supposed to be two different branches, right?
[David Zabner]: I don't know, but I think the idea is that as acting mayor, you have fewer powers, right?
[Milva McDonald]: We would have to delineate that, I guess.
[Moreshi]: That was the issue in Boston a couple of years ago.
[Milva McDonald]: Right. That the acting mayor didn't have the same powers.
[Moreshi]: It's like you could act in emergencies.
[David Zabner]: Yeah, the acting mayor will have only those powers of the mayor as are indefensible and essential to the conduct of the business. Yeah.
[Moreshi]: So maybe, maybe we adapt this for that interim period between them.
[David Zabner]: I mean, I think the other approach we could take is just the, the president of the city council can appoint an acting mayor. Whoever they, you know, I think there could be either from among the city council. Or, uh, you know, I think it could also be a really reasonable to say, um, they can appoint themselves themselves or department head.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. I'm not seeing the department head idea, but I kind of like it.
[David Zabner]: I have to say, um, I think it makes a lot of sense to be able to, or, you know, to explicitly be able to appoint a department head, somebody who's like already probably well aware of how the city is run.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I like this.
[Milva McDonald]: All right, good.
[David Zabner]: Should we say, yeah, acting mayor. Acting mayor.
[Milva McDonald]: I just wrote down delineate powers of acting mayor. Yeah. So that we can just know that that has to be looked at.
[Moreshi]: just act when necessary.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay, we're getting close to the end of article two, right?
[David Zabner]: Oh, I didn't actually order these. Oh, you didn't organize it that way.
[Milva McDonald]: This is just a list.
[Moreshi]: Just a list, yeah. I think we'll end up hitting everything. Maybe actually, maybe after.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't know, not tonight. We only have 10 minutes left.
[Moreshi]: No, I didn't mean tonight.
[Milva McDonald]: Oh, okay. I thought you meant tonight.
[Moreshi]: No, no. I'm going to bed as soon as this calls over.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[David Zabner]: Um, so the next section is oversight. Um, yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: So what have we seen? Is there an oversight section in the other charters?
[Moreshi]: There's access to information in a few. Um,
[David Zabner]: So specifically when I was thinking of oversight, I guess one thing is, uh, you know, coming back to the idea of the auditor, which I think we can table for now, but also just like, can the city council, should the city council have the explicit ability to compel information from basically any, uh, you know, city employee? Um, should the mayor be required to give a state of the city report? Um, What happens if a city Councilor, or, you know, a can the city council force the mayor to attend meetings, and the city council force other Councilors were, you know, absent to attend meetings, etc.
[Milva McDonald]: I don't know if I would put it as the city council can force the mayor, but we have heard feedback from members of the public that the mayor should have to attend, well, some people think every city council meeting or periodic meetings.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, go ahead. No, Framingham has a nice section that calls access to information. And it basically amounts to city officials and the mayor having to appear to speak to particular issues, provide certain information, that kind of thing. And I think that makes sense.
[Milva McDonald]: So is, oh, here's the access to information section. Okay, so in Melrose, any city officer? Yeah, so I mean, this usually happens. I mean, you know, they usually ask, this just sort of says that the department head can't, I don't think they usually get turned down, but, or the, or the employee, but, but that's, that's reasonable. And the mayor, This does, yeah, this one does say may require the mayor to appear. So, okay. So this says the mayor can bring someone else, but like now I think sometimes the chief of staff will go to meetings, right? But not the mayor. And if this were in the charter, the mayor would have to go.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right. Yeah. Well, and then the chief of staff. Right.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. Well, and, and even you can bring the chief of staff and the city council can't stop you from bringing people to help, which I think is also very reasonable.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. You have to give notice, which I think we should require because I think just having saying the mayor has to come tomorrow is, is unreasonable.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. I even think honestly, 48 hours is pretty unreasonable. Like. I think a week or two is much more reasonable.
[Milva McDonald]: So this is different than what we were, you know, what has been proposed by some people saying that the mayor should be specifically required to go periodically, like once a month or, I mean, I feel like this makes more sense because.
[Moreshi]: I do too.
[Milva McDonald]: You know, the mayor just goes, if there's not really a reason to be there or, I mean, not that there isn't a reason. I mean, being at the meetings, I guess is, um, its own reward. Right. But, um, but I feel like this is, this is a better use of time.
[Moreshi]: I agree. The meetings can go for hours. The mayor's not going to be called upon. She shouldn't have to be there. Harmon Zuckerman, PB – He, Him, His): But at the same time, maybe they want or three meetings in a row, something's going on. I think that's also valid.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. Yeah. And the, I think the The impetus behind the comment that the mayor should be required to go to the meetings comes from this desire to have the mayor and the city council have a less contentious relationship and, you know, um, and, and sort of making them really work together kind of. I mean, that's what we've heard from people. So, um, so that's kind of, that's the goal of, of that ask.
[David Zabner]: So there are a couple of differences I'm seeing in reading through these really quick. One of them. is um so like way myth gives the uh ability to subpoena a witness and administer oaths um which is a little more intense than what the other groups get um that's something i'd want to know more about that's a significant power you know yeah um And that's to, you know, to town office. Um, and then the other one that was interesting is Pittsfield. They also can require a member of a multi-member body, um, which like, it doesn't feel entirely unreasonable, but on the other hand, like volunteers.
[Milva McDonald]: I exactly.
[David Zabner]: Um, Yeah. And even this, like, I think this would be reasonable if it was like require the chair of a multi-member body maybe, right? Like if you're the person in charge of this thing, that's more reasonable. Um, it's still, yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Um, well, um, I don't know. I mean, I like Melrose. I think the way Melrose's is written is pretty good. And the question is, do we want to add the multi-member bodies?
[Moreshi]: I guess my, I kind of like it, you know, cause they do play important roles. Like that's the assessors, you know, they're doing important work. You just have to hope that the council doesn't use it as an excuse to berate. people or, you know, it's not bad. To a certain degree, we have to assume good behavior on everyone's part. So I'm good with it. I understand the hesitancy.
[David Zabner]: Would you all be comfortable with, Melrose has 48 hours notice. Pittsfield has a week notice. It looks like Duane has five days. I think like at least a week, if not two.
[Moreshi]: Yeah. I mean, if it's substantive, you want people to prepare.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. Well, just like if you were planning your, you know, once in a lifetime trip to France or something.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, exactly. I mean, So the city council meets every other week. So, you know, if there's that, it has to fit into one of those meetings, unless they can also compel people to come to subcommittee meetings. I mean, I'm assuming they could, right. It's any meeting. So it could happen at any time because those meetings happen and committees as a whole.
[David Zabner]: Let's start with 10 days notice. That feels like a reasonable amount. I realize it's longer than what anybody else put, but, um, yeah. Like, uh, yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: But you're right. It could run into a situation where the person is, you know, like as a trip to France plan, but nobody's going to be unreasonable.
[Adam Hurtubise]: Right.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, it doesn't say what the consequences to the person are. Right. Um, Well, I mean if you can subpoena... But if the person doesn't come with a good reason, it's fine.
[David Zabner]: Right.
[Milva McDonald]: People are reasonable.
[David Zabner]: Subpoena witnesses is certainly a bit more... It's really intense.
[David Zabner]: I'm not sure I would... It sounds to me like we're uncomfortable with the subpoena witnesses thing. I am. I think that's fine. So then, so that includes compelling mayoral attendance of meetings, which I think is good. It covers, we don't want city council to be able to call random citizens and force them to come, I assume.
[Unidentified]: No.
[David Zabner]: Right. So then what that leaves is, um, I guess for.
[Milva McDonald]: It was more than mayoral attendance. It was city employees too, right?
[David Zabner]: Right. Yeah. Plus city employees and multi-member bodies. Um, I wrote Melrose's as good as kind of a, uh, mainly focusing on, we want to add multi-member bodies and 10 days notice.
[Milva McDonald]: And not school committee, not putting that in there. I mean, the other ones don't have school school committee is very regulated. It's more regulated by the state than other bodies. So, but I don't know why it wouldn't be okay. I don't know.
[Unidentified]: I don't know.
[Milva McDonald]: I mean, the city council doesn't really have anything to do with the schools other than approving the budget. So maybe it's not appropriate.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, I wouldn't, I don't think we should. It's weird to me, frankly, how separate school committee is from everything else in every town, but it just, it is the way it is.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah.
[David Zabner]: Okay. Do we want to require a state of the city report from the mayor?
[Milva McDonald]: I feel like the mayor does that, right? But do we want to put it in the chart? I would say we have two minutes left, so I think we should wind up. I think we did pretty well here.
[David Zabner]: I think we did great. The thing I'll say on the state of the city report is that I feel like it's especially important if we, so like the thing I saw from the other city that has an auditor was that the auditor has to make regular statements as to like the financial wellbeing of the city and that kind of thing. I think that that's really important. I think the mayor should be required to do that unless the auditor is doing it instead, right? There should be regular checkpoints where there's a whole thing published that just says, here's where the city's at.
[Milva McDonald]: I feel like it happens with the budget. Is that right? I feel like there's, in the budget report, there's a lot of information about the city, demographics, population, I mean, all kinds of stuff. Am I wrong about that? I know I've seen it.
[David Zabner]: I don't know that those things are required. Right.
[Milva McDonald]: I'm saying we could require it. Yeah.
[David Zabner]: Yeah. And certainly you don't have to look back, I think, in the budget and say, last year, the school spent this amount and the police spent this amount. The arts fund went over by $2 and this other thing went under by seven.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, I think that, no, no, I think, yeah, yeah, that's good. Let's do, let's, I mean, we can start there next time. So when speaking of next time, let's see, we don't want to meet next week. next week people are going to be on holiday, right? The week after that is the week before the December meeting. I don't know how you guys feel if you think we should have another meeting before the December meeting. I feel that we could. There's enough for us to go through several meetings with whole committee with just what we've done, but it's also possible that in one more meeting, we could sort of get through the list, right?
[David Zabner]: I think it would be awesome if we were through the list and could kind of present.
[Moreshi]: I actually think we could get through the list next time. Yeah. You know, we're doing a good job, I think. I'm fine with one more.
[Milva McDonald]: Okay. So, I mean, do you guys want to meet next? I feel like no next week.
[Moreshi]: Next week will be tough.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah, so now we're talking about the week of November 27th, right?
[Moreshi]: Yeah.
[Milva McDonald]: Is there a particular, we're looking at evenings, right? Is there any?
[Moreshi]: I'm actually, I look pretty good except, excuse me. Yeah, I think I'm pretty clear. So does everyone else?
[David Zabner]: Yeah, I'm free every night except for Tuesday and Wednesday that week. Okay.
[Milva McDonald]: Wednesday is usually my only free night, but we could do 8.30 again on Thursday. Is that okay? You have a calendar, what date is that?
[David Zabner]: The 30th.
[Milva McDonald]: 30th. November 30th, 8.30, same time, same channel. Great.
[David Zabner]: And, uh, is somebody going to ask about auditor and creation of multi-member boards and commissions?
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I'm giving John Francis's email, right. And he's going to look into auditor and, um, and we're going to ask the Collins center. I'm going to ask Collins center to do a short presentation on, um, just a primer kind of a review. What is, you know, what, um, Because I mean, we should make that clear because, for instance, there's certain groups like our committee that this won't apply to. And then I think it also wouldn't apply to the committees created by ordinance, or they have their own rules. I don't know. We'll find out.
[David Zabner]: I mean, I imagine the multi-members boards and commissions are created by ordinance, unless the mayor just creates them as desired.
[Milva McDonald]: Well, I guess what I'm thinking, I'm thinking that there's certain commissions in the city where the city council actually does appoint like one or two members. And that's, you know, and that's because it says, I, you know, I need to, I need to research more before I say, but I am pretty sure that there are at least one or two commissions where the city council gets to. Yes, to appoint a member or two.
[Moreshi]: Yeah, it would really, uh, this is actually an issue that I would really love to hear them talk about, you know, what are the standard rules of the road, um, powers limitations. I think we've learned, I think it'd be really actually very helpful.
[Milva McDonald]: Yeah. And that we will hopefully get, uh, I will write to them tomorrow morning and cool. Yeah. All right.
[David Zabner]: This was great. I wish all my meetings went this way.
[Milva McDonald]: Do we want to officially adjourn?
[David Zabner]: Yes. Okay. Seconded.
[Milva McDonald]: Thank you. All right. Have a great night, everyone.
[Moreshi]: Great night. Thank you.
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